Here, one is daily exposed to the utter nonsense of the ruling clique, their SMSs, their fake news, their propaganda via the education that our children are abused by... in short, there's literally no end to the "occurrences" that you referred to.
Maybe I should have prefaced the post with some mention of that.
Mixed feelings. A friend once suggested I give up on the term Zionism. Let the fakes keep it. Just call ourselves "Torah-observant," or something like that. But I was too stubborn. The Mamlakhtim (diehard State loyalists), the Labor Zionists, the Armchair Zionists, and the Christian Zionists are all fakes.
A "zionist" is someone who מזיין אחרים -- friends, family, whomever... it doesn't matter. Likewise, it doesn't matter where s/he lives -- Israel or חוץ לארץ, it's all the same. (I apologize for any vulgarity)
As well, BITD we spoke about אסירי ציון (Prisoners of Zion, aka Soviet Jewish "refuseniks"). But, once The Wall fell, it became clear that there were still Prisoners of Zion -- ISRAELIS! If you served as an IDF reservist, and needed/wanted to leave the country for business, a conference, a שמחה, or whatever, you had to get permission from your יחידה (unit)... which was, as often as not, refused. And even if you were just a regular citizen, you couldn't (still can't) leave the country without a valid passport. Other countries require one to enter, but Israel (and a few others) require one *to leave*. Talk about the barbed-wire facing "in", rather than "out". It's those same "Zionists/זיינ-ists".
For instance, If zionism is the belief that the Jews deserve a dwelling place in their ancestral homeland, then those people aren't fakers, they're sincere believers.
They happen to believe in something that has no value whatever — like the Dodgers have a right to be domiciled in their original dwelling place in Brooklyn. So what…?
Fact is, zionism didn't advance the cause of Torah Judaism one whit.
"For instance, If zionism is the belief that the Jews deserve a dwelling place in their ancestral homeland, then those people aren't fakers, they're sincere believers."
Why do they believe that? Because HaShem says so, or because Herzl said so, or because the UN sort of said so.
The only justification for Zionism is the Torah. The Torah says for Jews to reside in Israel whenever possible (this gives some haredim, but not modern orthodox, an out, because some haredim legitimately do not believe it is possible).
The Labor Zionists do not believe that the Land of Israel is only for Jews, and eventually gerei toshav. They do not believe in Torah observance. At best they pick and choose in order to push their agenda.
The Armchair Zionists deny the part of the Torah telling them to at least want to live him. (Do they?)
The Christian Zionists deny the Oral Torah. Thus they distort the Written Torah which states explicitly who may and may not reside in Israel. (Koferim, such as the Canaanites, may not, among others) They also have their sights set on our Land. So, they are also fake Zionists.
I think we're talking past each other. Both are NOT correct, in my view. They're both equally absurd and meaningless. It doesn't matter why someone believes that Jews deserve a homeland. Hashem said Jews have to live in EY. Period.
When you say the only justification for zionism is the Torah--there, precisely, you get lost.
There is no justification for any movement, political, religious or otherwise based on a mitzva.
If there is, you might as well sign up for lulavism, or shabbatism, or mayim acharonimism. It's absolutely absurd. The mitzva is whole unto itself. It requires no outside organizing mechanism to assist in its fulfillment.
It's crazy to even consider it.
Once you open the door to Xian zionists and armchair and labor zionists and attempt to understand or analyze them, you implicitly give the whole enterprise standing--and it deserves none. Zionism is absolutely meaningless and absurd to a Torah observant Jew.
I agree that Zionism is unjustifiable, but would quibble on your notion that there is no justification for any movement, political, religious or otherwise based on a mitzva. I think Chassidus would fit the definition of a movement based on a notional mitzva, that is a legitimate expression of avoda.
Enjoyable prose! But it feels disconnected from any specific occurence.
Occurrence?
It gives the sense that it's a reaction to something that happened, but unsure what.
Do you live in Israel?
No.
That might explain it.
Here, one is daily exposed to the utter nonsense of the ruling clique, their SMSs, their fake news, their propaganda via the education that our children are abused by... in short, there's literally no end to the "occurrences" that you referred to.
Maybe I should have prefaced the post with some mention of that.
Mixed feelings. A friend once suggested I give up on the term Zionism. Let the fakes keep it. Just call ourselves "Torah-observant," or something like that. But I was too stubborn. The Mamlakhtim (diehard State loyalists), the Labor Zionists, the Armchair Zionists, and the Christian Zionists are all fakes.
You may have seen this already. Please see the comments. Not sure if you find them relevant, though. https://palmtreeofdeborah.blogspot.com/2024/12/the-klippah-of-religious-zionism.html
Saw it.
Enjoyed it.
Wrote her privately on the matter.
Not sure what the term zionist ever added to the life of a Torah observant Jew.
Also, the number of ardent zionists who live in chutz la'aretz renders the word meaningless.
How do you define it yourself, as an observant Jew?
A "zionist" is someone who מזיין אחרים -- friends, family, whomever... it doesn't matter. Likewise, it doesn't matter where s/he lives -- Israel or חוץ לארץ, it's all the same. (I apologize for any vulgarity)
As well, BITD we spoke about אסירי ציון (Prisoners of Zion, aka Soviet Jewish "refuseniks"). But, once The Wall fell, it became clear that there were still Prisoners of Zion -- ISRAELIS! If you served as an IDF reservist, and needed/wanted to leave the country for business, a conference, a שמחה, or whatever, you had to get permission from your יחידה (unit)... which was, as often as not, refused. And even if you were just a regular citizen, you couldn't (still can't) leave the country without a valid passport. Other countries require one to enter, but Israel (and a few others) require one *to leave*. Talk about the barbed-wire facing "in", rather than "out". It's those same "Zionists/זיינ-ists".
G-d love you, JB. Vulgarity forgiven. I think you're on to something...
As for the barbed wire, 100% correct.
The State of Israel is either a huge concentration camp with the zionist Kapos at the head, or an oversize ghetto, with a zionist Judenrat in charge.
Pick your משל. Either way, the defining historical event for the zionists is the Shoah.
It's their Mt. Sinai, l'havdil.
So it's all they're capable creating.
Hashem save us from their evil.
Wrote about it here:
https://savethehilltopyouth.substack.com/p/the-protocols-of-the-effete-pantywaist
"ardent zionists who live in chutz la'aretz"
I call them Armchair Zionists (like armchair quarterbacks), one of the categories of fakes.
Depends upon how you define it.
For instance, If zionism is the belief that the Jews deserve a dwelling place in their ancestral homeland, then those people aren't fakers, they're sincere believers.
They happen to believe in something that has no value whatever — like the Dodgers have a right to be domiciled in their original dwelling place in Brooklyn. So what…?
Fact is, zionism didn't advance the cause of Torah Judaism one whit.
That's my point. Both are correct. However,...
"For instance, If zionism is the belief that the Jews deserve a dwelling place in their ancestral homeland, then those people aren't fakers, they're sincere believers."
Why do they believe that? Because HaShem says so, or because Herzl said so, or because the UN sort of said so.
The only justification for Zionism is the Torah. The Torah says for Jews to reside in Israel whenever possible (this gives some haredim, but not modern orthodox, an out, because some haredim legitimately do not believe it is possible).
The Labor Zionists do not believe that the Land of Israel is only for Jews, and eventually gerei toshav. They do not believe in Torah observance. At best they pick and choose in order to push their agenda.
The Armchair Zionists deny the part of the Torah telling them to at least want to live him. (Do they?)
The Christian Zionists deny the Oral Torah. Thus they distort the Written Torah which states explicitly who may and may not reside in Israel. (Koferim, such as the Canaanites, may not, among others) They also have their sights set on our Land. So, they are also fake Zionists.
I think we're talking past each other. Both are NOT correct, in my view. They're both equally absurd and meaningless. It doesn't matter why someone believes that Jews deserve a homeland. Hashem said Jews have to live in EY. Period.
When you say the only justification for zionism is the Torah--there, precisely, you get lost.
There is no justification for any movement, political, religious or otherwise based on a mitzva.
If there is, you might as well sign up for lulavism, or shabbatism, or mayim acharonimism. It's absolutely absurd. The mitzva is whole unto itself. It requires no outside organizing mechanism to assist in its fulfillment.
It's crazy to even consider it.
Once you open the door to Xian zionists and armchair and labor zionists and attempt to understand or analyze them, you implicitly give the whole enterprise standing--and it deserves none. Zionism is absolutely meaningless and absurd to a Torah observant Jew.
Fulfill the mitzva or don't.
V'zehu. The rest is narishkeit.
I agree that Zionism is unjustifiable, but would quibble on your notion that there is no justification for any movement, political, religious or otherwise based on a mitzva. I think Chassidus would fit the definition of a movement based on a notional mitzva, that is a legitimate expression of avoda.